1855 Death cert

[crayspond]

Hi to all,

I have just downloaded a death cert from 1855. As it was the year the Statutory Records began it is slightly different in format to the ones that followed. I have asked SP to send me a copy as it is hard to make some words out. The good news for me is that it has a bit more info.
It covers two pages and has a column for 'where born and how long in this district' - another column split in two - headed ' If deceased was married' column 1 - to whom and column 2 - children in order of birth and their ages also another column for 'where buried'.
Must say it was nice to download a cert and get more info that i was expecting! I imagine there would have been a few prototypes that year. In my case i got the names and ages of 8 children and the church he was buried in.
Anyone else had a death cert like this for 1855?

Ailsa

[nelmit]

Hi Ailsa,

1855 was the best year for info on all BMD entries! I'm glad to say I have quite a few.

If I have an ancestor born around 1855 I always look for a sibling born around the same time and have been lucky a few times to find an 1855 birth entry that gives lots more info on the parents.

You can see what info they give at SP - http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Conte ... ?r=554&632

Regards,
Annette

[crayspond]

Thanks Annette,
I had a look at the link - I will now be looking back for 1855 BDMs! I think i had one before but it was not as informative as this one.
It is the death of William Hardie died December 1855 age 72 - the brother of my gggg grandfather - I don't have to look for him anywhere else as he lived in Strathblane Stirling for 35 years (I am waiting to decipher where he was born - looks like Strathspey but can't be positive) He was buried in Strathblane Parish Church, married to Agnes McNeil and had 8 children.
So i get back maybe another generation!

All the best,
Ailsa

[Montrose Budie]

Ambitions were high when the Act was passed in 1854, based not least on the English experience from 1837 onwards and the perceived drawbacks in terms of the relative paucity of the English BDM info, hence the tremendous 'extra' info in the Scottish 1855 records.

It was very quickly realised, however, that the load thus imposed on the registrars was far too great, so that an amending act reduced the info for 1856 and later, removing most of the 'bonus' 1855 info. Some of the 'bonus' 1855 info was restored after a few years by further amending acts of parliament.

As here, an 1855 record is worth looking for; the same being true of an 1855 birth, and, to a lesser extent, an 1855 marriage.


In this case the image is readily readable, - in fact it's good for it's age, - 157 years !


William HARDIE [occupation not entered by the registrar!]

Male, 71 years

[Born] Strathspey, Moray_shire

35 years in the district.

[parents] Peter HARDIE, Sawyer (dec'd) and Janet DONALDSON [not shown as deceased !, but, given no record on SP, can be presumed to be.]

[married and issue]
Agnes McNIEL [the registrar has missed out the place and date of the marriage]

Peter 45 [at the date of his father's death]
John 43
Janet 40
Paul [?] dec. Oct 1831 aged 18
Margaret 36
Jane 36
Mary 31 [?]
Agnes 29
Cath^ne 26

The place of death in Strathblane parish is Craigallan.

They actually had 10 children, but Paul died in 1831, and the OPR shows an unnamed child as born 01Jan1816, but the mother's surname is shown as McNICOL. Unnamed, so died before christened.

mb

[crayspond]

Thanks MB,
There is such a contrast between pre and post 1855 BMD info. Although still good to have and print out,the pre 1855 have so little on it. Mind you it's good to have anything at all and the writing is usually very artistic!
You have another child that does not show on my Record - the last child Catherine is not named. Something different after the first son Peter's age - which i may be able to read.
As i said before William is the brother of my gggg granfather John Hardie born 1786. Funny that neither of them named any of their children William.
I found this on LDS - as children of Peter Hardie and Janet Donaldson. I recognise William and John, both born in Moray but the other two Jean and Margaret born in Barony Lanark may be a red herring or children to another couple called Peter and Janet Hardie!

56. JOHN HARDIE - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Christening: 22 DEC 1786 Dallas, Moray, Scotland
57. WILLIAM HARDIE - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Christening: 23 DEC 1784 Dallas, Moray, Scotland
58. JEAN HARDIE - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: 29 NOV 1789 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
59. MARGARET HARDY - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: FEB 1794 Barony, Lanark, Scotland

I will try and find more from the Moray records on SP. Thanks for the interest.

Regards
Ailsa

[Montrose Budie]

........snipped ........

You have another child that does not show on my Record - the last child Catherine is not named. Something different after the first son Peter's age - which i may be able to read.

.....snipped ..........
Ailsa

She's there on the 1855 death register entry, after Agnes, but the registrar has to start another column, so she's up there top right in the column alongside Peter as Cath^ne 26.

The other child is shown in the OPR index as, -

01/01/1816 HARDIE ----- [i.e. innamed] William HARDIE/Agnes MCNICOL FR[ame]705 STRATHBLANE/STIRLING 491/00 0020 035

mb

[crayspond]

Hi MB,
That explains why I couldn't read what it said next to son Peter 45. The Registrar didn't want to go into the box of the next person below.
I wonder if the Agnes McNicol is Agnes McNeil or it's a different woman? That would explain why there are no more children called William if he died. Some people maybe didn't want to call the next son William again - whereas a lot of people did. Amazing that so many of their children lived so long - you begin to expect lots of childhood deaths, that it is heartening to see so many living into their 30s and 40s.
My gggg grandfather John (William's brother) was born 22/12/1786 in Dallas Moray (I assume William was too - although it says Strathspey on the cert) He married Janet Gilfillan in 1813 in Strathblane.
I think i can now assume father Peter and Janet Donaldson moved down to Strathblane at some point for work from Moray and the family settled there. My line eventually worked their way down to Glasgow and then back to Dalmuir/Clydebank - i was born in Dunbarton. So not far at all.

Many thanks,


Ailsa

[Currie]

The Histpop site has a copy of the 1854 legislation that came into effect in 1855. It makes interesting reading for anyone with the time and energy. Right at the bottom you’ll find copies of the register pages etc that were required to be completed. http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/Vie ... s&mno=4048

Looking through the legislation you’ll find quite a lot of things that registrars and others would probably have had cause to complain about. But there’s nothing particularly difficult about writing down a couple of extra columns of information supplied by an informant. Almost identical registration systems, as far as the amount of information recorded in registers was concerned, were introduced in the three eastern colonies of Australia at about the same time, and they seem to have coped without changing anything. Here’s a death example. http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 6Death.jpg

The 1855 registers must have been awkward things to work with, with the details for the one person spreading over two pages, although the Australian ones I mentioned appear to have been the same, and stayed that way.

The original 1855 system must have failed incredibly quickly to get the new arrangements up and running with new registers and everything by 1856. It makes you wonder how bad things really were. I can’t imagine complaints by minor bureaucrats and others being so quickly listened to back in the days when red tape was God. Maybe there was one particular influential individual or organisation that strenuously pressed the case.

I haven’t exactly busted a boiler trying to find out, but I haven’t really seen anything from the time that mentions problems that led to printing of new registers, not even in the detailed reports to Parliament on the Histpop site. There was Scottish registration legislation in 1855 but it appears to have no connection at all to this. I haven’t seen mention of registration problems or changes in any old newspapers or books. Maybe it was all done behind the scenes by way of departmental regulation. http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/Vie ... s&mno=4049

Perhaps, in trying to make the system a bit more manageable, they unnecessarily threw all the bits of the baby that genealogists really miss out with the bathwater.

Here’s the first annual report of Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages, Scotland.
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/TOC ... pagetitles

And the first detailed annual report of Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages, Scotland.
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/TOC ... pagetitles

And by way of comparison, here’s the 150th annual report of the Registrar General, rather more colourful, and with a bit of past history to mark the event. (It’s a slow loading pdf) http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/s ... dition.pdf

Hope that didn’t put anyone to sleep,
Alan

[Montrose Budie]

.....mich snipped........ Almost identical registration systems, as far as the amount of information recorded in registers was concerned, were introduced in the three eastern colonies of Australia at about the same time, and they seem to have coped without changing anything. Here’s a death example. http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 6Death.jpg

....much more snipped......

Alan

Some years ago I came across info strongly suggesting that a Scot, possibly the Scot, who was closely involved in designing the Scottish statutory registration system system, emigrated to Australia and performed the same role there in at least one colony; but despite much contact with various libraries and FHSs, I was unable to get this confirmed.

Hence perhaps the curious similarity be tween an 1855 Scottish record, and the example that Alan shows ? The columns might be in a different order, but its essentially the same info ............

Prior to the 1854 Act there were some 7 or 8 earlier unsuccessful attempts to have a bill passed for Scotland.

mb

[Montrose Budie]

.....much snipped........

Almost identical registration systems, as far as the amount of information recorded in registers was concerned, were introduced in the three eastern colonies of Australia at about the same time, and they seem to have coped without changing anything. Here’s a death example. http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 6Death.jpg

....much more snipped......

Alan

Some years ago I came across info strongly suggesting that a Scot (insurance industry background?) who was closely involved in designing the Scottish statutory registration system system, emigrated to Australia and performed the same role there in at least one colony; but despite much contact with various libraries and FHSs, I was unable to get this confirmed.

Hence perhaps the curious similarity between an 1855 Scottish record, and the example that Alan shows ? The columns might be in a different order, but its essentially the same info ............

Prior to the 1854 Act there were some 7 or 8 earlier unsuccessful attempts to have a bill passed for Scotland.

mb