Dead end on William Pryde?

marypryde · Post by **marypryde** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:31 am

I know TS can't help with living people, and I don't believe I am violating any privacy laws with this post. Having received from the GRO the death extract that I though would send me catapulting into the future, I'm disappointed. I thought William Pryde was the best possibility for getting as close as I could to relatives still in Scotland.

My great uncle: William Pryde

b. 7 October 1886 (illegitimate) to Isabella Pryde, Largo, Fife . Source: Statutory Records.

d. 5 September 1963 in Cupar, Fife. Source: SR extract.

From the death registration:
-Occ: coal miner (underground) (retired)
-Married to Margaret Fulton
-Cottage near Cupar (usual residence). (Springbank Terrace Kennoway)
-Confirmed his parentage.
-Informant, (son, of Glenrothes). It's remotely possible he's still alive. I do have his name and street address from the purchased extract.)

Challenges:
1. Why can't I find a marriage to Margaret Fulton? (I found a likely Margaret b. about 1882 in Inverkeithing.) Perhaps they didn't marry?

2. Why can't I find his son's birth? Not a likely candidate even under mother's surname.

William was still at home with his mother in Largo, age 16, for the 1901 census.
He does not appear in the UK 1911 census.
He was the informant upon his mother's death in Fife in 1953.
One of his brothers emigrated, but I doubt William did since he is accounted for in Scotland in 1901, 1953 and 1963.

In addition to SP, I have tried Ancestry, etc. Am I just stuck until the 1911 census is released? Or am I missing something?

Best regards, Mary Ellen

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:46 am

One of mine was known as Cook (his mother's name as he was illegitimate) but when he married he took his father's name of Fisher - although he did use this for the rest of his life.

There are only 4 marriages of a Margaret Fulton to a William between 1910 and 1933. One of them is at Fife in 1917.

There is also 1 of a William Pryde to a Margaret at Fife in 1915.

They might be worth a check.

Regards,
Annette

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:27 am

Hi Mary

He does not appear in the UK 1911 census.

Just a small point - the "UK" 1911 census is not available to search at present.
It is only possible to access the 1911 census for England and Wales. So your chap may appear on the 1911 census in Scotland. We will not have access to this until 2011.

Why can't I find a marriage to Margaret Fulton?

Perhaps they married after 1933?

Best wishes
Lesley

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:36 pm

The only sure way forward is indeed to see if the "son" informant for William's death is still living. If his DC can be found then you might be able to ascertain if he was indeed a son of William Pryde and Margaret Fulton. There are several possibilities floating around here....he was the son of a previous marriage of Margaret's who then married William so he was not really a son but a step son and had assumed the surname PRYDE (which I assume is what he used when signing the DC). He was a son of William PRYDE and not Margaret FULTON but someone else that never married William. He was an illegitimate son of William and Margaret and they never married. He got his mother's maiden name wrong so it really isn't a Margaret FULTON we're looking for. On William's DC was it listed that Margaret Fulton was already dec'd or still living....ie was William "married to" or a "widower of".

You simply need some more data....and waiting for the next Scottish census release won't guarantee you success!!

Best wishes
Jean

marypryde · Post by **marypryde** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:58 pm

Thank you all for helping me think this through.

Annette - I took your advice and checked those possible marriages - none a likely candidate, but thanks. One of them may still turn out to be a first marriage, and Margaret Fulton is the second.

Lesley - don't know why I referred to the 1911 census that way - I know better even though patience is not my strong suit. Whether they married after 1933 remains a possibility, depending on what I find out from the death extracts I just ordered.

Jean - I am pursuing your "sure way" suggestion. There are two deaths who could be the son - in 1983 and 2005. Trusty credit card in hand, I have ordered both those death extracts from the GRO. Those could either send me on my way or stop me in my tracks (son would be my 1st cousin once removed, or his children would be my second cousins.) William's death registration indicates "married to Margaret Fulton." No mention of "deceased."

I fear I'll eventually forget some of these pending possibilities - any suggestions for a method? My record-keeping "system" could use improvement. Right now I maintain a Word document on each individual, adding detail as I find it.

Many thanks to all, Mary Ellen

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:08 pm

Hi Mary Ellen

Well I hope the certificates aren't a total waste of money for you. One of them has to be your relative anyway but I suspect one will not be. If I've done my maths correctly the male who died in 1983 would have been born about 1902 so his birth should be found on SP. I however didn't find one with a William for a father that looked good so I've pretty much eliminated him from the running.....that leaves the other fellow who by my maths would have been born about 1916. Soooooo....off I went looking for marriages for William PR*DE to anyone at all anywhere at all.....from 1901 (last living with his mum) to 1920 in hoping to find your William marrying ANYONE who might have birthed this son who should have been born about 1916. Well....luck was on my side...here's your William's marriage...

1915 PRYDE WILLIAM MILLAR MARGARET WINDYGATES /FIFE 447/02 0002

Soooo...now I'm guessing that maybe the informant son didn't know his mum's maiden name when William died. There's a death 1967 that might be Margaret's. You'll know this fits if the DC you just ordered ties them all together.

Best wishes
Jean

marypryde · Post by **marypryde** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:45 pm

Hi again, Jean,

I don't see that one of them (the 2 deaths) has to be my relative at all. Someone born ca. 1916 would only be 93 years old today and might not have died yet. I point that out because I know for a fact that his grandmother (William's mother Isabella) lived to be 95 years old in spite of the fact that she lived in coal-mining circumstances, was an ag laborer, and gave birth to at least three illegitimate children!

Thanks for checking that 1915 marriage. It certainly could be my William. The age fits and the single parent fits, although I have a lot on Isabella and have never seen the term "crofter" used for her.

Hopefully, we'll all find out when I receive the death certs. It could turn out that Margaret Millar was the son's mother and Margaret Fulton was William's second wife.

To be truthful, it's not that I'm dying to meet more relatives so much as it is my curiosity about the blank branch in my family tree (the unnamed man or men who fathered William and my grandfather James). James came to the USA, 2nd brother Robert died young in a mining accident. I'm thinking that if anybody knows Isabella's story, it would be William's branch of the family. I'd love to know what my maiden surname would have been.

Caution: Curiosity and impatience could lead to bankruptcy! Cheers,
Mary Ellen

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:51 pm

marypryde wrote:Hi again, Jean,

I don't see that one of them (the 2 deaths) has to be my relative at all. Someone born ca. 1916 would only be 93 years old today and might not have died yet. I point that out because I know for a fact that his grandmother (William's mother Isabella) lived to be 95 years old in spite of the fact that she lived in coal-mining circumstances, was an ag laborer, and gave birth to at least three illegitimate children!

Thanks for checking that 1915 marriage. It certainly could be my William. The age fits and the single parent fits, although I have a lot on Isabella and have never seen the term "crofter" used for her.

Hopefully, we'll all find out when I receive the death certs. It could turn out that Margaret Millar was the son's mother and Margaret Fulton was William's second wife.

To be truthful, it's not that I'm dying to meet more relatives so much as it is my curiosity about the blank branch in my family tree (the unnamed man or men who fathered William and my grandfather James). James came to the USA, 2nd brother Robert died young in a mining accident. I'm thinking that if anybody knows Isabella's story, it would be William's branch of the family. I'd love to know what my maiden surname would have been.

Caution: Curiosity and impatience could lead to bankruptcy! Cheers,
Mary Ellen

You are of course 100 percent correct in your opening statement. I was trying to be extremely optimistic about the fact you were shelling out for 2 extracts in the hopes that you'd get at least some return!!! Well I spose knowing that neither are correct is in it's own way knowledge but I really hate to work from negatives to find the positives as that's the hard road. Please do let us know if there is a hit!!

Can't blame you for being curious about the surname but it just may be a secret that the woman took to the grave. What's wrong with a matriarchal lineage anyhow??? I rather like the idea

Curiosity helps the Scottish government balance it's budget!

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:02 pm

nelmit wrote:One of mine was known as Cook (his mother's name as he was illegitimate) but when he married he took his father's name of Fisher - although he did use this for the rest of his life.

There are only 4 marriages of a Margaret Fulton to a William between 1910 and 1933. One of them is at Fife in 1917.

There is also 1 of a William Pryde to a Margaret at Fife in 1915.

They might be worth a check.

Regards,
Annette

Well there

....just reread this whole thread and realized that Annette had already found this 1915 marriage as a good possible.

Face it.....if Nelmit and JustJean arrive independently at the same strongly surmised conclusion the answer has just got to be correct

(Go ahead and throw the squishy vegetables now.....

)

Best wishes
Jean

marypryde · Post by **marypryde** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:25 pm

OK, I'll be optimistic and hope that Margaret Millar is part of the equation. And yes, Annette did find her first, but a few hours ago I was dead set on having a Margaret Fulton. Using TS is such a mind-opening experience.

In regard to g-grandmother Isabella, Anne H. suggested the following quite some time ago:

Whilst we like to think of our ancestors as being victims of the times, there was also a lot of drunkeness and prostitution in those days. So whether we like it or not, we have to be realistic and look at our ancestors from all aspects if we want the truth.

I'm open to that possibility, but I have a hard time believing that drunken prostitute attained 95 years of age and was not thrown out of the house, however humble, by her apparently respectable parents.

Mary Ellen