Lost in surnameless limbo...

[SarahND]

Evening all,
I have a problem with the 1841 census... I am looking for a boy named John (surname uncertain) who was sent to his father’s acquaintances in Barrhead when his father died-- so far with no luck. Tonight, after following some links to Barrhead given in another post, I came across a transcription of the 1841 Barrhead census:

http://www.barrhead-scotland.com/Cultur ... _entry.asp

If you click on “Access the database” you get an alphabetical list of entries including, at the beginning, some entries without names (just ages and occupations in some cases), then some with only first names. One of them interests me: John, the Calico Printer Apprentice born in Ireland. I would like to know what household he is in and see whether or not his age could have been 8 rather than 18. But... I can’t find him searching the Ancestry 1841 index, and Scotland's People will not let me search without a surname-- so is there a way around this? Unless I am missing something, there is no way for me to know where in the entire parish that John may be living-- so I would need to look at every page.

This brings up a general problem with all the censuses at Scotland’s People. Assuming that there are always a certain number of people who are only indicated by their first names, do they appear in the index at all or are they lost in some index limbo and unreachable? In any case, they can’t be found if one cannot search without a surname, since they don't have one... Any bright ideas out there? It’s 11:00pm and still 86 degrees out and my brain is a bit sluggish

Sarah

[Tom-W]

If you search on FreeCen http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl you will find them with the following household:

Piece: SCT1841/572 Place: Neilston-Renfrewshire Enumeration District: 5
Civil Parish: Neilston Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 7 Page: 17
Address: Bridge Of Lee
JENKINS Ennis M 50 Ireland
JENKINS Margaret F 40 Ireland
JENKINS Ennis M 17 Calico Printer Apprentice Ireland
- John M 18 Calico Printer Apprentice Ireland Surname not recorded
- Francis M 15 Calico Printer Apprentice Ireland Surname not recorded
- Margaret F 13 Ireland Surname not recorded
- Robert M 7 Ireland Surname not recorded
THOMSON William M 7 Outside Census County

You shoud be able to use the Jenkins family to access the correct page in SP. Ancestry has given all the missing surnames as Jenkins so it would be interesting to know which index is more accurate.

Hope this helps

Tom

[Jack]

Hi Sarah,
I've had a look at the RFHS 1841 CD,
and it might possibly be John JENKINS aged 18, calico printer ap. born Ireland, living at Bridge of Lee, Neilston.
This John is with a lot of JENKINS' all born Ireland, and seems to with an Ennis 50 & Margaret 40, plus other children.

This index is a wee bit difficult at times - the names aren't always grouped together as a family.

The list has 59 Johns aged 7-9, and 128 aged 6-10.
Was your John aged about 8, and born Ireland?
Just trying to narrow down the possibilities.
Jack
ps, oops! forgot about FreeCen again - Tom has already found the info.

[SarahND]

Thanks, Tom and Jack, for your help. It does look as though it is all one family, so it is most likely not my John. His father started out as a designer for calico prints, so I was hopeful.

The John I am looking for was born in 1833 in Ireland. He was illegitimate, but had his father's name on his birth certificate and came over to Glasgow with his father (no idea what became of the mother) in 1835 or 1836. The father died in early 1841, before the census, and John was reportedly sent to some friends in Barrhead. If he went by his father's name he was John Giles, if by his mother's he was John Brown (help! could he have a more common name?!). I have found near fits with both names, but nothing completely convincing-- either the age is off, or he is not born in Ireland, etc. I'm always on the lookout for one that fits all the facts, since there is no way to choose between the "almosts".

I'll put this one aside again for awhile-- thanks again for your help
Sarah

[Tom-W]

There is a John Giles age 10, born in Ireland in Barony in 1841 in a House of Refuge for Boys - could this be a possibility? His occupation was a winder.

Tom

[Jack]

Hi Sarah,
Just to add to Tom's interesting find of a John GILES in 1841.
I can't see a suitably aged John GILES (or similar)/ BROWN born Ireland in the Barrhead area 1841.

Have you found John in 1851 & 1861?
What was his mother's forename? Did she too come to Scotland?
Jack

[SarahND]

Hi Tom,
Yes, I had seen that one and in an earlier post (http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=) was trying to find if there was any information on the House of Refuge for Boys. I was told that they didn't have anything from that early on.

Jack,
I found a John Brown age 10 in Neilston living with the family of David Monroe. He is listed as having been born outside the county, but not in Ireland. However, in 1851 there is a John Brown age 18 in Neilston, but SP says "no image" so I can't say where he was born or what he was doing.

His mother's forename was, of course, Mary I doubt that she came to Scotland. She may have died... not sure. The father, Peter Giles, had a history of begetting illegitimate children and then bringing them up himself (my gr gr grandmother was one...) when the mother had died. He wrote to his daughter in 1837 about how bright John was and that he was already learning to read. No mention of Mary in the letter and when he died there was a scramble to figure out what to do with "the Boy", so I think she was not in the picture.
Sarah

[Jack]

Hi Sarah,
Just going by the name index it's possible John BROWN 18 in 1851 Neilston is with an Andrew YOUNG 35, Agnes 36 & 5 children.
In 1841 this Andrew YOUNG is a miller at Kirkton Mill, Neilston, and seems like he's in the same place 1851.
(same farmer neighbours in 1841 & 1851)

I take it you have no MC or DC for John? Nor have him on any later censuses?
Do you know for certain that he did reach adulthood?

Even knowing John died in Scotland he might be rather difficult to trace.
Especially being unsure of the name he went by.
GILES could have some variations, and as for the surname BROWN; it's a nightmare at times.
And that's from first hand experience on my own Brown ancestors.
(the only thing going for it is that it's not often spelled differently, but there are very, very many)

It's quite an understatement saying you seem have a bit a problem....
Sorry i can't see any easy solution, but i do hope someone else will.
Jack

[SarahND]

Hi Jack,
I don't know for certain that John reached adulthood, nor do I have a MC or DC for him. I just became intrigued when I read references to "John" in my ggg grandfather's letter to his daughter, and the references as to what to do with "the Boy" in a letter to her from someone in Glasgow after their father's death (see discussion in an earlier deciphering post:
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I wondered if he could be another illegitimate child (his wife was still living in Aberdeen, so he can't have married the mother), so I looked in Belfast, where he had been living before coming to Glasgow, and sure enough, there is the birth of a John Giles, father Peter Giles and mother Mary Brown (a pseudonym?) in January of 1833. There didn't seem to be any other Peter Giles in Belfast at the time (judging from the 1835 Freeholders Poll Book), so I assumed the father was my ggg grandfather.

I have looked into the possibility that he also came to the U.S. later, as that is where his half-sister, my gg grandmother, was by the time her father died. I have found a John Giles or two, but none of them overly convincing. So, I'm stuck. Perhaps one day something will come to light that will help me narrow down the possibilities.

Thank you for your interest and help!
Sarah

[Jack]

Hi Sarah,
Not for the first time did i forget that the 1851 Neilston & Barrhead census is online....
It can be a long slog though to find all who are living in the one household if names are different.
But fairly straightforward if you know that all the names are the same.
If they aren't, you have to look at every name to cross-check the EN_P (Enumeration District & Page)
and also the House (number) together with the address to find matches.

http://www.barrhead-scotland.com/Cultur ... census.asp
--
The John BROWN 18 is at the top of page 6,
Andrew YOUNG & family are near the top of page 69.

The complete household is on ED 8; Pages 61 - 62 (ie EN_P 0861 & EN_P 0862)
And you'll notice they have the same house no. too (00197).
Also with the family is a Sarah Hutchison 21, housemaid.
--
But after saying all that, this John BROWN was born in Neilston....
So doesn't really look at all promising.
Jack