I'm not sure where to ask this but general discussion seems the most likely.
What would happen to the deeds of a house when it's demolished? Are they kept somewhere or destroyed or added to those of the next building on the site?
The site is now taken up by a petrol station forecourt and shop and there were actually three houses
demolished, two older houses and one new bungalow.The house I'm interested in would have been where the fourcourt is now.
Regards
Jenny
Death of a House
Moderators: Global Moderators, Pandabean
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Alan SHARP
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:41 pm
- Location: Waikato, New Zealand
Re: Death of a House
Hi Jenny, from New Zealand.
While I can not help you, because I’m not aware of the land tenure system used for recording in Scotland, here in New Zealand we are fortunate that when the European’s arrived they set out to survey New Zealand, and record land transactions by the CADASTRAL mapping system.
I’ll be interested to learn about your systems.
New Zealand Lands and Deeds titles were recorded, based on survey plans, not historic land marks. Even in the case of a modern cross leased title, of quite small metre age, there will be a paper trail, back to an original survey, of an original block, which in some cases was thousands of acres. Up until the digitizing of the lands and deeds papers, one could call at their offices and request a free paper copy. However the trick was knowing, the exact title reference you wanted. When looking for historic titles from a bygone era, it paid to have help, working your way backwards as each plan or title had, in the left corner, references to, the whole OR PART THEREOF, of the deed that it superseded.
Now days the professionals, Land Agents, Lawyers, Surveyor’s, Local Authorities, are registered users, and just go on line, and look it all up. In the 1980’s I spent days in a regional office, hunting down family held titles in the 1860 & 1880’s. A lot of work sifting through well thumbed reference books, full of named parties, and or Parish lot numbers. Some titles obtained, took me 30 years to accurately place on a map because I could not succeed, while there, in finding a copy of the master plan. A lot to learn, finding the Parish, Deposit Plan number, Lot and part lot numbers, then to the Volume – Folio, and transfer number/s.
What is really interesting, and should be very helpful to those now searching their pioneer roots in New Zealand, is the fact that the New Zealand Genealogy Society is RIGHT NOW trialling a new request system they are in the process of setting up. Volunteers with deed knowledge/training will become registered users of the electronic data base, and for a copying charge, be able to provide copies of early deeds. This is possible because the care of the “old” records has now been transferred to NZ Archives.
The deeds are a mine of information because they date and time [to the minute] the registered transfers, and any registered liens on the title. Therefore you get the full names of interested parties, dates of transfer to executors because of death, notes about restrictions placed upon the title because of public works etc, and all manner of other weird and wonder full things, that help to explain why, there was suddenly movement from another wise entrenched family.
Alan SHARP.
PS. Edit. I forgot to say while the REGISTERED title holder was issued a paper title. Often placed in a bank for safety sake [and or held by mortgagor], there should always have been an identical copy "original" held by the registering land/deeds office. I know of cases where the office copy has been misplaced/lost in handling, but that was the theory.
While I can not help you, because I’m not aware of the land tenure system used for recording in Scotland, here in New Zealand we are fortunate that when the European’s arrived they set out to survey New Zealand, and record land transactions by the CADASTRAL mapping system.
I’ll be interested to learn about your systems.
New Zealand Lands and Deeds titles were recorded, based on survey plans, not historic land marks. Even in the case of a modern cross leased title, of quite small metre age, there will be a paper trail, back to an original survey, of an original block, which in some cases was thousands of acres. Up until the digitizing of the lands and deeds papers, one could call at their offices and request a free paper copy. However the trick was knowing, the exact title reference you wanted. When looking for historic titles from a bygone era, it paid to have help, working your way backwards as each plan or title had, in the left corner, references to, the whole OR PART THEREOF, of the deed that it superseded.
Now days the professionals, Land Agents, Lawyers, Surveyor’s, Local Authorities, are registered users, and just go on line, and look it all up. In the 1980’s I spent days in a regional office, hunting down family held titles in the 1860 & 1880’s. A lot of work sifting through well thumbed reference books, full of named parties, and or Parish lot numbers. Some titles obtained, took me 30 years to accurately place on a map because I could not succeed, while there, in finding a copy of the master plan. A lot to learn, finding the Parish, Deposit Plan number, Lot and part lot numbers, then to the Volume – Folio, and transfer number/s.
What is really interesting, and should be very helpful to those now searching their pioneer roots in New Zealand, is the fact that the New Zealand Genealogy Society is RIGHT NOW trialling a new request system they are in the process of setting up. Volunteers with deed knowledge/training will become registered users of the electronic data base, and for a copying charge, be able to provide copies of early deeds. This is possible because the care of the “old” records has now been transferred to NZ Archives.
The deeds are a mine of information because they date and time [to the minute] the registered transfers, and any registered liens on the title. Therefore you get the full names of interested parties, dates of transfer to executors because of death, notes about restrictions placed upon the title because of public works etc, and all manner of other weird and wonder full things, that help to explain why, there was suddenly movement from another wise entrenched family.
Alan SHARP.
PS. Edit. I forgot to say while the REGISTERED title holder was issued a paper title. Often placed in a bank for safety sake [and or held by mortgagor], there should always have been an identical copy "original" held by the registering land/deeds office. I know of cases where the office copy has been misplaced/lost in handling, but that was the theory.
Last edited by Alan SHARP on Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Re: Death of a House
Hi Jenny
I know nothing of the legal side of this, but I would have thought that the deeds (which state the extent of the land, where the boundaries are, who has owned it in the past, the conditions of what you can and cannot do on it e.g. erect a piggery, factory or whatever etc etc) would still form a part of the deeds of the new building because although the building has changed, the land itself has not.
Best wishes
Lesley
I know nothing of the legal side of this, but I would have thought that the deeds (which state the extent of the land, where the boundaries are, who has owned it in the past, the conditions of what you can and cannot do on it e.g. erect a piggery, factory or whatever etc etc) would still form a part of the deeds of the new building because although the building has changed, the land itself has not.
Best wishes
Lesley
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runmerry
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:52 pm
- Location: Scotland
Re: Death of a House
Hi Alan,
That's interesting. I must confess that I've no idea how our system works. The only title deeds I've seen are the part of the deeds to my own house that the solicitor photocopied for me when we had a dispute over the garden and that just shows the area of land etc that we owned.
The reason I am asking is that on looking at an old map of the area(1868) I noticed that my great grans house wasn't on it and I always thought it was a lot older than her, she was born in 1866. I can remember visiting her when I was a child and found her livingroom fascinating as it was a triangle and she had gas lights.
Hi Lesley,
That's what I thought originally, but then I thought if those pieces of ground were all lumped together would there not have to be a new title for a new area of land. Do title deeds include building and land or are there separate titles for each? I vaguely remember something about feu duty and feu superiors etc
but maybe that has nothing to do with it.
The house was demolished about 20-25 years ago and a car showroom built on the site which was then changed into shop units by a new owner.Then just a couple of years ago the whole lot plus another house and newish bungalow were demolished to create an even bigger site for a new petrol station and shop. So I know the most recent history. I just wondered if I could find anything about who built great grans house and when.
Regards
Jenny
That's interesting. I must confess that I've no idea how our system works. The only title deeds I've seen are the part of the deeds to my own house that the solicitor photocopied for me when we had a dispute over the garden and that just shows the area of land etc that we owned.
The reason I am asking is that on looking at an old map of the area(1868) I noticed that my great grans house wasn't on it and I always thought it was a lot older than her, she was born in 1866. I can remember visiting her when I was a child and found her livingroom fascinating as it was a triangle and she had gas lights.
Hi Lesley,
That's what I thought originally, but then I thought if those pieces of ground were all lumped together would there not have to be a new title for a new area of land. Do title deeds include building and land or are there separate titles for each? I vaguely remember something about feu duty and feu superiors etc
but maybe that has nothing to do with it.
The house was demolished about 20-25 years ago and a car showroom built on the site which was then changed into shop units by a new owner.Then just a couple of years ago the whole lot plus another house and newish bungalow were demolished to create an even bigger site for a new petrol station and shop. So I know the most recent history. I just wondered if I could find anything about who built great grans house and when.
Regards
Jenny
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Re: Death of a House
Jenny - There should be some record in the sasines - going back in time owner to owner would eventually lead you to the house and who it belonged to. The sasines will also record the joining together of pieces of land etc. Did your granny own it, or did she rent it?
Using old maps you should be a able to get a name for the area or street at the time. A search at ScotlandsPeople centre in Edinburgh on the PCs there might be worthwhile (in the NAS part of the building - not sure if you can do this in the NRH part of the building); you can also search for surnames etc. so one way or anther you should be able to track it down.
Using old maps you should be a able to get a name for the area or street at the time. A search at ScotlandsPeople centre in Edinburgh on the PCs there might be worthwhile (in the NAS part of the building - not sure if you can do this in the NRH part of the building); you can also search for surnames etc. so one way or anther you should be able to track it down.
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AnneM
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:51 pm
- Location: Aberdeenshire
Re: Death of a House
Hi Jenny
The deeds of a house which is demolished should pass to the next owner of the land as the house and land go together. Accordingly whoever owns the petrol station should have the deeds of the house. The transfer of the land which may have happened before or after the house was demolished would have been registered either in the register of Sasines if it happened before the system changed or the Land Registry if it happened once registration of title came in.
Registration of title was introduced by legislation in 1979 but rolled out by areas over Scotland thereafter.
It's a very long time since I studied any conveyancing and was never an enthusiast but I'm sure that the deeds of a house and the land on which it stands are one and the same.
Lesley is obviously correct to say that you may find something in the Sasines in NAS.
Anne
The deeds of a house which is demolished should pass to the next owner of the land as the house and land go together. Accordingly whoever owns the petrol station should have the deeds of the house. The transfer of the land which may have happened before or after the house was demolished would have been registered either in the register of Sasines if it happened before the system changed or the Land Registry if it happened once registration of title came in.
Registration of title was introduced by legislation in 1979 but rolled out by areas over Scotland thereafter.
It's a very long time since I studied any conveyancing and was never an enthusiast but I'm sure that the deeds of a house and the land on which it stands are one and the same.
Lesley is obviously correct to say that you may find something in the Sasines in NAS.
Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
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Alan SHARP
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:41 pm
- Location: Waikato, New Zealand
Re: Death of a House
.........................runmerry wrote:Hi Alan,
Hi Lesley,
...........snipped
The house was demolished about 20-25 years ago and a car showroom built on the site which was then changed into shop units by a new owner.Then just a couple of years ago the whole lot plus another house and newish bungalow were demolished to create an even bigger site for a new petrol station and shop. So I know the most recent history. I just wondered if I could find anything about who built great grans house and when.
Regards
Jenny
Hi again Jenny,
In the case of the type of recent development described, I feel "resource consents" would have been required, especially with regards to traffic egress, and structures built over adjoining titles, so it is probable that the old titles have been amalgamated into one, but there will still be archival copies of the former titles, held by what ever administrative body is charged with keeping such records. As stated previously the early NZ records have now changed hands from the lands and deeds offices to Archives NZ. Likewise your 1880's deeds could now be held by Archives.
If you were to connect with the right [interested] person, a phone call to the rates department, of the local rating authority, could give you most the info you need, or at least the correct title info, so that you can enquire at the Land Registry Office.
Alan SHARP
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Alan SHARP
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:41 pm
- Location: Waikato, New Zealand
Sasines are useful
Greetings All.
This evening as I was cruising through RootsChat, I came across a 2004 forum thread that had been bumped back into circulation, last June, at the top of the Scotland Forum. It has some very interesting info about "Sasines" and as I expected the older ones are now held at the National Archives, and are being digitized. The title and link being:-
"Never Mind How to Pronounce It, Sasines Are Useful"
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 232.0.html
If you are not RootsChat registered, and the above link will not work, you can gain quick access using Google Advanced Search.
Type "Sasines are useful" in the subject search box and the web address in the very last box:-
www. rootschat .com [remove the spacing].
Happy reading,
Alan SHARP.
This evening as I was cruising through RootsChat, I came across a 2004 forum thread that had been bumped back into circulation, last June, at the top of the Scotland Forum. It has some very interesting info about "Sasines" and as I expected the older ones are now held at the National Archives, and are being digitized. The title and link being:-
"Never Mind How to Pronounce It, Sasines Are Useful"
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 232.0.html
If you are not RootsChat registered, and the above link will not work, you can gain quick access using Google Advanced Search.
Type "Sasines are useful" in the subject search box and the web address in the very last box:-
www. rootschat .com [remove the spacing].
Happy reading,
Alan SHARP.
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runmerry
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:52 pm
- Location: Scotland
Re: Death of a House
Hi Alan & Ann,
Thank you very much.
The two of you have given me some idea of where to look for more information.
Meantime I think I'll have a look at the valuation rolls and censuses at the local heritage centre just to see who was living there before Gran.
Regards
Jenny
Thank you very much.
The two of you have given me some idea of where to look for more information.
Meantime I think I'll have a look at the valuation rolls and censuses at the local heritage centre just to see who was living there before Gran.
Regards
Jenny
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Re: Death of a House
Alan - As far as I am aware from visits to NAS, all (or most?) are now digitised. It is a project which was started several years ago now.and as I expected the older ones are now held at the National Archives, and are being digitized
Anne - thanks for the date for the changeover to registration of title (1979). I knew I remembered it happening, but had no idea it was so long ago!! That must have been the about the same time that I remember my parents talking about no longer having to pay feu duty.
Best wishes
Lesley